See for eg.: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
"Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco" ... "My take away is that …
"Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco" ... "My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability;"
You left out the part about those reports coming from animal studies. The NIH and Mayo Clinic and numerous other credible sources say that nicotine is itself addictive. As a former smoker and current nicotine user (vaping), and someone who has used both patches and gum to attempt to quit, I know giving up nicotine in any form is difficult and unpleasant. Legions of smokers and former smokers tell the same story.
However my comment was not intended to start a debate about how addictive nicotine is. I was asking why it was not included in the list of nootropics, since it’s probably second only to alcohol when it comes to mind- and mood-altering substances people use. Smoking (and patches, gum, vaping) improve alertness and concentration and create a feeling of calm (in many smokers/nicotine users, anyway). That seems worth adding to the survey even though we know that smoking (like drinking and taking LSD) can be harmful when overdone.
"As a former smoker and current nicotine user (vaping), and someone who has used both patches and gum to attempt to quit, I know giving up nicotine in any form is difficult and unpleasant."
I'm curious because this statement is a little ambiguous. Is it difficult to switch from cigarettes to vaping? Is it difficult to switch from vaping to patches or gum? Is it difficult to go from patches/gum to no nicotine? All of the above? (and if so, what's the relative difficulty of each?)
I don’t know to measure or describe “relative difficulty.” Most smokers have significant difficulty quitting, but many manage to do it (I have myself, several times). Smoking cessation gets pushed hard in American society, and an entire industry exists to help people quit.
The one time I quit for long enough to call it quitting (20 or so years) I quit cold-turkey, with my wife who also smoked, when we had a baby on the way. That seemed easy when I remember it. I resumed smoking 20 years later by bumming just one at a bar and the next morning I bought a pack and got right back to a pack-a-day habit.
Besides the addiction to nicotine, which one can feed with any source (smoking, vaping, patches, gum), smoking cigarettes habituates smokers to rituals and behaviors (cigarette with coffee, cigarette with a drink, etc.), and one gets used to the taste, the feeling, the whole experience of smoking. Switching from cigarettes to gum or a patch will allay the worst withdrawal symptoms (headaches, dizziness, anxiety, obsession with getting another fix) but it doesn’t eliminate the habits and associations, which are not necessarily unpleasant.
Dropping cigarettes for gum or a patch (I’ve done both, several times) works up to a point — no nasty withdrawal symptoms — but it doesn’t stop the craving. When I used gum and patches I would think about smoking and persuade myself I could smoke just a few cigarettes a day, which has always led to resuming smoking because it’s more satisfying than patches or gum. I think every smoker I’ve known who tried patches and gum had the same experience.
Vaping seems better because along with the nicotine fix it has the flavor (former smokers tend to use tobacco-based vape flavors) and the sensation of smoke in the mouth and lungs. Anecdotally lots of people switch fairly easily from cigarettes to vaping. I have only had one cigarette in the three years since I started vaping (a social occasion, though I admit it tasted good and I wanted to buy a pack after that one cigarette).
I switched to vaping when I moved back to the USA after a period of living overseas because my wife hated the smell, I was feeling some bad effects on my health, and smoking has been marginalized and taxed to the point that it’s inconvenient and even embarrassing — the stigma takes most of the enjoyment out of it. Standing far away next to a trash can puffing away alone starts to feel pathetic. With more and more places banning smoking, vaping is apparently tolerated. A landlord or hotel cleaner can’t detect vaping, but you can’t hide the scent of cigarettes.
At this point in my life (I’m 60) I am content to live with nicotine addiction and the almost-the-same experience of vaping. I know I shouldn’t do it at all, but to paraphrase Churchill I don’t trust a person without vices, including myself. There’s nothing more tedious to me than people telling me why I shouldn’t smoke, as if I didn’t know that better than them.
Fuck – this is scary in how closely it matches my own experiences!
I smoked cigarettes, probably on-average around one (1) pack a day, for about a decade.
I tried to quit many many times but always relapsed. I've never tried patches, but expect them to be miserable. I've tried gum a few times, but it was comically easy for me to not think about chewing the gum slowly (as I think 'my mouth' just 'thought' it was regular gum or candy). The few times I tried gum I overdosed (i.e. ended up taking an effective dose FAR larger than what I wanted to) and I very much dislike stimulant 'overdoses' (e.g. including 'cold medicine', caffeine, and anything 'speedy').
But then I quit – it was, at first, just another attempt, but maybe I was finally _sufficiently_ disgusted with my habit? Anyways, it stuck that time, for many years – and with no appreciable need to exert willpower at all!
But then I accepted a cigarette after (and while) I was drinking (alcohol) and BAM – I was back to smoking about a pack of cigarettes a day, tho I could, with significant effort, keep it down to about one half of a pack a day for short periods.
But, as you mention, smoking is gross, isolating, inconvenient, expensive, pretty widely prohibited in many areas, and just generally terrible, besides the actual direct pleasure of its use. I also much more readily noticed the very significant health effects.
I tried vaping and that's what I've stuck to since. It, like gum, for me anyways, is also easy to 'overdose' on. Smoking a cigarette feels like an actual physical 'drag' added to my body (via my damaged lungs, throat, mouth, and nasal cavities I imagine) but vaping produces, if at all, an extremely attenuated version of the same feelings. I think I mostly just notice its effects on my heart beat, blood pressure, etc.. When I was trying to find a good vape pen/system/whatever, I kept finding info about 'custom vaping mods' – those seem much more likely to be akin to smoking; some people seem to be trying to _really_ closely replicate smoking without the smoke!
But I'm extremely confident that: (a) quitting nicotine again, long-term, would be very difficult (but then _trivial_ once I'm in the right whatever state something something, if I could ever reach that state again); (b) vaping is MUCH MUCH less bad than smoking cigarettes.
At this point, I'm more focused on cutting back on my vaping, as it is still somewhat expensive, and otherwise similarly bad in some of the ways smoking is (tho MUCH less so). But it seems like an acceptable vice as-is overall (for me)!
Ever tried Champex or similar? Worked like a charm for me. Basically just clogs up the nicotine receptors so you can't get any pleasure from cigarettes, which makes them awful and unsatisfying. After that I made sure every time I'd get a craving I'd focus on how awful and unsatisfying those last few smokes were. Smoking is awesome though. It almost forces you to meditate every hour or so. Brisk fall mornings on the deck with a cup of coffee and a smoke. Nothing but the sounds of the birds. I don't regret smoking, but I'm glad I quit.
No, I've never tried any 'cessation' medication. I'm wary of taking something that denies me a way to satisfy 'cravings' but doesn't stop or mute the cravings themselves!
Yes, the meditative aspect is awesome. That's one reason why I think a lot, maybe most, people already practice 'meditation' – there's lots of similar rituals people perform that probably have a lot of the same effects (good and bad) as formal/traditional meditation.
I didn't really have a problem switching from cigarettes to vaping – but I was pretty motivated!
I hated the gum – none of the satisfying rituals/experiences of smoking, and way too easy (for me) to 'overdose', which I find VERY unpleasant. (I would often get very physically uncomfortable, to the point of vomiting, when I smoked 'too many' cigarettes too.)
I haven't tried patches – or maybe once? I wouldn't expect it to work well – smoking/vaping/chewing-gum provide intense bursts of nicotine administration and I think a relatively constant release (which is what I'm assuming patches do) to NOT help breaking/hijacking habits/rituals. With vaping, I think it's very helpful that I can hijack smoking habits/rituals by just substituting a vape pen (which is even roughly shaped/sized like a cigarette) for a cigarette.
But yeah, generally, quitting/switching involves not just overcoming nicotine withdrawal, but possibly withdrawal for other chemicals (where there are any), and very much a good portion of breaking old habits and giving up pleasant or satisfying rituals.
See for eg.: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
"Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco" ... "My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability;"
You left out the part about those reports coming from animal studies. The NIH and Mayo Clinic and numerous other credible sources say that nicotine is itself addictive. As a former smoker and current nicotine user (vaping), and someone who has used both patches and gum to attempt to quit, I know giving up nicotine in any form is difficult and unpleasant. Legions of smokers and former smokers tell the same story.
However my comment was not intended to start a debate about how addictive nicotine is. I was asking why it was not included in the list of nootropics, since it’s probably second only to alcohol when it comes to mind- and mood-altering substances people use. Smoking (and patches, gum, vaping) improve alertness and concentration and create a feeling of calm (in many smokers/nicotine users, anyway). That seems worth adding to the survey even though we know that smoking (like drinking and taking LSD) can be harmful when overdone.
"As a former smoker and current nicotine user (vaping), and someone who has used both patches and gum to attempt to quit, I know giving up nicotine in any form is difficult and unpleasant."
I'm curious because this statement is a little ambiguous. Is it difficult to switch from cigarettes to vaping? Is it difficult to switch from vaping to patches or gum? Is it difficult to go from patches/gum to no nicotine? All of the above? (and if so, what's the relative difficulty of each?)
I don’t know to measure or describe “relative difficulty.” Most smokers have significant difficulty quitting, but many manage to do it (I have myself, several times). Smoking cessation gets pushed hard in American society, and an entire industry exists to help people quit.
The one time I quit for long enough to call it quitting (20 or so years) I quit cold-turkey, with my wife who also smoked, when we had a baby on the way. That seemed easy when I remember it. I resumed smoking 20 years later by bumming just one at a bar and the next morning I bought a pack and got right back to a pack-a-day habit.
Besides the addiction to nicotine, which one can feed with any source (smoking, vaping, patches, gum), smoking cigarettes habituates smokers to rituals and behaviors (cigarette with coffee, cigarette with a drink, etc.), and one gets used to the taste, the feeling, the whole experience of smoking. Switching from cigarettes to gum or a patch will allay the worst withdrawal symptoms (headaches, dizziness, anxiety, obsession with getting another fix) but it doesn’t eliminate the habits and associations, which are not necessarily unpleasant.
Dropping cigarettes for gum or a patch (I’ve done both, several times) works up to a point — no nasty withdrawal symptoms — but it doesn’t stop the craving. When I used gum and patches I would think about smoking and persuade myself I could smoke just a few cigarettes a day, which has always led to resuming smoking because it’s more satisfying than patches or gum. I think every smoker I’ve known who tried patches and gum had the same experience.
Vaping seems better because along with the nicotine fix it has the flavor (former smokers tend to use tobacco-based vape flavors) and the sensation of smoke in the mouth and lungs. Anecdotally lots of people switch fairly easily from cigarettes to vaping. I have only had one cigarette in the three years since I started vaping (a social occasion, though I admit it tasted good and I wanted to buy a pack after that one cigarette).
I switched to vaping when I moved back to the USA after a period of living overseas because my wife hated the smell, I was feeling some bad effects on my health, and smoking has been marginalized and taxed to the point that it’s inconvenient and even embarrassing — the stigma takes most of the enjoyment out of it. Standing far away next to a trash can puffing away alone starts to feel pathetic. With more and more places banning smoking, vaping is apparently tolerated. A landlord or hotel cleaner can’t detect vaping, but you can’t hide the scent of cigarettes.
At this point in my life (I’m 60) I am content to live with nicotine addiction and the almost-the-same experience of vaping. I know I shouldn’t do it at all, but to paraphrase Churchill I don’t trust a person without vices, including myself. There’s nothing more tedious to me than people telling me why I shouldn’t smoke, as if I didn’t know that better than them.
Fuck – this is scary in how closely it matches my own experiences!
I smoked cigarettes, probably on-average around one (1) pack a day, for about a decade.
I tried to quit many many times but always relapsed. I've never tried patches, but expect them to be miserable. I've tried gum a few times, but it was comically easy for me to not think about chewing the gum slowly (as I think 'my mouth' just 'thought' it was regular gum or candy). The few times I tried gum I overdosed (i.e. ended up taking an effective dose FAR larger than what I wanted to) and I very much dislike stimulant 'overdoses' (e.g. including 'cold medicine', caffeine, and anything 'speedy').
But then I quit – it was, at first, just another attempt, but maybe I was finally _sufficiently_ disgusted with my habit? Anyways, it stuck that time, for many years – and with no appreciable need to exert willpower at all!
But then I accepted a cigarette after (and while) I was drinking (alcohol) and BAM – I was back to smoking about a pack of cigarettes a day, tho I could, with significant effort, keep it down to about one half of a pack a day for short periods.
But, as you mention, smoking is gross, isolating, inconvenient, expensive, pretty widely prohibited in many areas, and just generally terrible, besides the actual direct pleasure of its use. I also much more readily noticed the very significant health effects.
I tried vaping and that's what I've stuck to since. It, like gum, for me anyways, is also easy to 'overdose' on. Smoking a cigarette feels like an actual physical 'drag' added to my body (via my damaged lungs, throat, mouth, and nasal cavities I imagine) but vaping produces, if at all, an extremely attenuated version of the same feelings. I think I mostly just notice its effects on my heart beat, blood pressure, etc.. When I was trying to find a good vape pen/system/whatever, I kept finding info about 'custom vaping mods' – those seem much more likely to be akin to smoking; some people seem to be trying to _really_ closely replicate smoking without the smoke!
But I'm extremely confident that: (a) quitting nicotine again, long-term, would be very difficult (but then _trivial_ once I'm in the right whatever state something something, if I could ever reach that state again); (b) vaping is MUCH MUCH less bad than smoking cigarettes.
At this point, I'm more focused on cutting back on my vaping, as it is still somewhat expensive, and otherwise similarly bad in some of the ways smoking is (tho MUCH less so). But it seems like an acceptable vice as-is overall (for me)!
Ever tried Champex or similar? Worked like a charm for me. Basically just clogs up the nicotine receptors so you can't get any pleasure from cigarettes, which makes them awful and unsatisfying. After that I made sure every time I'd get a craving I'd focus on how awful and unsatisfying those last few smokes were. Smoking is awesome though. It almost forces you to meditate every hour or so. Brisk fall mornings on the deck with a cup of coffee and a smoke. Nothing but the sounds of the birds. I don't regret smoking, but I'm glad I quit.
No, I've never tried any 'cessation' medication. I'm wary of taking something that denies me a way to satisfy 'cravings' but doesn't stop or mute the cravings themselves!
Yes, the meditative aspect is awesome. That's one reason why I think a lot, maybe most, people already practice 'meditation' – there's lots of similar rituals people perform that probably have a lot of the same effects (good and bad) as formal/traditional meditation.
I didn't really have a problem switching from cigarettes to vaping – but I was pretty motivated!
I hated the gum – none of the satisfying rituals/experiences of smoking, and way too easy (for me) to 'overdose', which I find VERY unpleasant. (I would often get very physically uncomfortable, to the point of vomiting, when I smoked 'too many' cigarettes too.)
I haven't tried patches – or maybe once? I wouldn't expect it to work well – smoking/vaping/chewing-gum provide intense bursts of nicotine administration and I think a relatively constant release (which is what I'm assuming patches do) to NOT help breaking/hijacking habits/rituals. With vaping, I think it's very helpful that I can hijack smoking habits/rituals by just substituting a vape pen (which is even roughly shaped/sized like a cigarette) for a cigarette.
But yeah, generally, quitting/switching involves not just overcoming nicotine withdrawal, but possibly withdrawal for other chemicals (where there are any), and very much a good portion of breaking old habits and giving up pleasant or satisfying rituals.